Two Chaps - Many Cultures
Global Business Excellence Through Cultural and Emotional Intelligence (ICE-Q)
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Two Chaps - Many Cultures
Beyond Stereotypes: All Italians Eat Pasta And Talk With Their Hands
Embark on a cultural voyage with us as we peel away the veneer of stereotypes to reveal the rich mosaic of Italian heritage and its profound global influence. Say goodbye to the worn-out image of Italians as merely expressive gesture-users or the aggressive, uneducated characters you see in films. We're promising you a fresh perspective, uncovering how Italian migrants have woven their traditions into the fabric of societies from Australia to the United States, leaving a legacy of mouthwatering cuisine and robust coffee cultures. Our conversation takes you beyond the simplistic view of Italy as a uniform culture, celebrating the diverse regional histories and languages that have thrived long before the nation's unification.
As we navigate the streets of Munich, where Italian architectural prowess stands tall, and sip on what's arguably Germany's finest coffee, we're not just talking about influence; we're experiencing it. Our discussion also scrutinizes the delicate interplay between honoring heritage and perpetuating stereotypes, with a nod to the influential narratives of Scorsese and Coppola. We dissect the complexities of Italian communication, from its nuanced verbal indirectness to its rich tapestry of non-verbal expression. Moreover, we voyage into the bilingual region of South Tyrol, shining a light on the fluidity of cultural assimilation. Join us for this enlightening journey that celebrates the multifaceted Italian culture and its timeless impact on the world stage.
๐๐ฌ๐ค ๐พ๐๐๐ฅ๐จ โ ๐๐๐ฃ๐ฎ ๐พ๐ช๐ก๐ฉ๐ช๐ง๐๐จ is the worldโs #1 show on the business of culture and the culture of business. Christian Hรถferle and Brett Parry ponder culture in short bursts and deep dives, featuring your questions and comments related to culture, business, and personal growth.
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What the fuck are you doing? Get out of here. Yeah, you heard me, right? I'm cussing in Italian, or at least I pretend to, and we talk a lot with our hands, aren't we? Yeah, because that's a stereotype, right? That's what you know about them Italians. Yeah, and all of you Italians talk like that, right? Uh-huh, well, maybe not, and maybe not all of them do that, and maybe not all of them sound as aggressively uneducated as I just did. So, careful with those stereotypes about people. And today we're going to look at those from La Bella Italia. Yeah, sure, we use the hands south of the Alps, but do we really know how to? And do we?
Speaker 2:really know what all of that means. Let's check it out. Welcome to 2Chaps. Many Cultures. In an increasingly globally connected world, it is vital to possess the essential skills of cultural intelligence.
Speaker 1:Listen along as we present the topics, tips and strategies you can use to develop the power of cultural understanding in your personal and professional life.
Speaker 2:Here are your hosts Christian Huffala and Brett Parry.
Speaker 1:Ciao amici, bentornato a two chaps. Many cultures, due ragazzi, e tutti le culture, I guess. Ah, my Italian sucks. Welcome back, everybody, and see my name even changed. I'm Cristiano. What did I do? Am I becoming Italian? I don't know. No, and should we continue doing this and making a caricature of people's communication styles? What do you think?
Speaker 2:about that, brett, I don't know. You know I'm certainly. I don't know if there is an equivalent for Brett in Italian Bretto. I don't know. I don't even know what that is, but you know, first of all, I had a question. Actually, it came to mind when you were doing that. Why do we call it stereotype? Actually came to mind when you were doing that. Why do we call it stereotype if it is a one single minded caricature of a certain group of people? Why wouldn't we call it mono type?
Speaker 1:that's something I hear, but we should have explored that before we went live.
Speaker 2:We should have explored that. So anybody who's listening out there, please, as we always say, subscribe, hit that bell, and of course, you don't have to do that to do this, but you can let us know. Why do we call it stereotyping? But let's not go too far down that rabbit hole. Let's talk about.
Speaker 2:What we're doing today, and that's exactly what we've started off with is throwing out there a few of the stereotypes that we have about a particular culture, in this case Italy. It's a very popular culture in the world and everybody has their idea of what an Italian might sound like or look like and what food they eat. All of those kind of things exist in a lot of the world because Italians have found their way in a lot of the world, even my home country of Australia. Back all the way back in the 1600s, they tagged along with the Dutch and went there and mapped with the missionaries in Indonesia. They mapped the northern parts of Australia, and that came from an Italian. He sent it back to the Vatican trying to get them to come on, let's go down. This is a great place, it's sunny, and forget about the snakes and the spiders and all that. They'll get over that.
Speaker 2:But then, you know, fast forward into, you know, the 1800s, when we had the gold rush, we had a lot of Italians coming for the gold chasing riches in Australia. And of course then later on, when we had in Australia the populate or perish policy, where we were literally paying people to come to Australia, people to come to Australia, the poor people and it really was usually the peasant farming community were offered a chance to get passage at a very highly subsidized rate. They made their way to Australia and they found their ways into places like the cane farming in the north and things like that. And of course, back then just like there is in all of these waves of immigration that came through my country, as an example in Australia prejudice and stereotyping and this was this perception of Italians and they were coming to steal our jobs and they were coming to bring their you know, maybe some of their networks and their reputation around, how strong the family was, and the family has connotations again with certain stereotypes of Italy. This is a very well-known stereotype that existed in Australia.
Speaker 2:And, of course, fast forward when I grew up around a lot of Italians and the food they bought, their wonderful food, and of course, what else do we think? Of Italians, the coffee, so the coffee. Of Italians, the coffee, so the coffee, the coffee. And of course you know that's something that's unique in Australia. When people go there they think you know why would Australians have such a coffee culture? Came from the wonderful Italians, so stereotyping.
Speaker 1:Wherever the Italians went, they left a mark and very often to, I would argue, to improve. Wherever they went, they brought something that didn't exist there and I think and we're doing this show, this program from the comfort of our US, american homes Italians left a huge mark on the Americas as well. In fact, the Americas are called America because of an Italian. There is some arguments to be made about the positive influences largely positive influences that Italian culture has brought across the globe. And I just corrected myself Italian cultures culture, well, is there more than one? Perhaps there is, and most Italians will tell you that they're not a homogeneous culture, even though we might think of Italy as this monolith of pizza and pasta and very expressive, non-verbal communication. And yet, if you look at Italian history and how the country is made, up until the Risorgimento in the 19th century, italy was split up like a big quilt, like a mosaic consisting of so many different puzzle pieces.
Speaker 2:Like a pizza. Perhaps like a pizza.
Speaker 1:And the languages spoken across the Italian peninsula isn't always the same. You go down to Sicily, you go to Sardinia, you go to Milan, or you go to Napoli, or you go to I don't know, go to Bari, and people will speak different forms of Italian. Some would even argue it's a different language. So here's where I go back even further in history across this in recent months, this question of how much time do men, particularly men, spend thinking about the Roman Empire? Well, you should be thinking about the Roman Empire to understand this, Because some 2,000, so-and-so years ago, italians or the Romans conquered much of the Mediterranean world and beyond, in Europe, in Northern Africa, and ventured even up into what is now the Nordics or what is now Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
Speaker 1:And those areas had different languages, different cultures and they needed to communicate fast. There were people from the empire going to the heart of the empire, because all roads lead where, of course, they lead to Rome, the heart of the empire. And if you don't speak the language, if you didn't speak Latin, the precursor of Italian, then you needed your whole body to communicate the message. So there is a scientific argument to be made about why is Italian language so expressive, emotionally and physically expressive, because people need to communicate across linguistic obstacles. We use our hands and feet and the rest of our body to relay the message. You messaged, I guess, and you brought up the Australian connection with Italy. I come from a country called Germany.
Speaker 1:We're just across the Alps on the northern side of what is today Italy. Our connection when I say our, the German-Italian connection, even though it brought about some horrific things in the 20th century. But our connection when I say our, the German-Italian connection, even though it brought about some horrific things in the 20th century. But our connection has been just as old as the Roman Empire. The German culture, some would argue, exists only because of the Roman Empire, because we were immediate neighbors and we learned from each other and we fought each other and we loved each other.
Speaker 1:And just like there is lots of immigration that came to Australia from Italy, there was lots of immigration going into Germany, especially after World War II. I come from a city, or near a city, called Munich, which the Italians call Monaco di Baviera, the cittร italiano piรน norte, the northernmost Italian city. If you've ever been to Munich, you will recognize the Italian influence in that city, both in forms of architecture, in forms of cuisine, and Italians will confirm I don't have to say this, even though I'm doing it now, but Italians will tell you much more convincingly than I that the best coffee in Germany you'll get in Bavaria. It's because of the Italian influence.
Speaker 1:There seems to be a thread here with coffee and pasta and pizza.
Speaker 1:And then you find lots of Italian immigration that went to the Americas and Hollywood movies Scorsese and what's the other guy, coppola. They made movies that perpetuated some of those stereotypes, of those stereotypes, sometimes in favor of italian culture, sometimes more like libel you would. You could argue, right it, italian culture suffered from being stereotyped, probably more than many other cultures around the world, and that's why we began this episode with all the ital Italians do this and talk like this. All of them, really, have you been to Italy? They don't. Just as any other stereotype will only hold up this much until you really get closer to it and find out about the reality, the real life.
Speaker 2:Well, of course, before the advent of internet and global news and 24-hour news cycles and things like that, those populations that came and settled these countries essentially were disconnected from their home country. So there's we've seen that, I've seen this with Greek clients where they'll say you know, I've come to America and I see Greek communities here and they do things and practice traditions and they and it's almost like this is not what we do now in Greece. This is different, but it's kind of. It's historically been carried on by the immigrant population here and that can be some source of that stereotype too, whereas the country moves on, evolves, and the people chain, the culture is dynamic and it's not a monolith and and but, but the new people that have come here and historically settled want to carry on those traditions, that connection. So they may actually and you know, with in their own, by their own interests and by their own actions, promulgate some of those stereotypes.
Speaker 2:So that's, you know, and you told me that an interesting connection between Bavaria and Italy. It's an interesting connection there, and that's just one example of that. So let's think about, you know, when we do work with people, we're obviously applying some of our tools that we use, like Globesmart, and we think about the profiles of a country, and this of course imbues the connection between communication styles, like we talked about, the more expressive hand gestures, the more high context, use of context in an Italian language like Italian, and then the attitude to work and the attitude to all that. So where do we find that mate? Where do we see here Italy falling in that?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's easily misconstrued as the impression that one might think. Because of their emotional and physical expressiveness, Italians have a very direct style of communication and if you look at the data, if you look at the available information we have in cultural comparison frameworks like Globesmart, Italy ranks well dead center, more leaning on indirect communication style. So the language itself, the words and the tonality used is not very direct compared to, let's say, German-Dutch-English communication style or American-English communication styles. And yet the directness that we perceive is probably transported in the non-verbals right. Probably transported in the non-verbals right If there is direction given, or emotion or threats, or disagreement or disinterest shown through non-verbals. That could easily give us the impression that the communication style is quite direct. The words are not so much, the body language is, and I've heard it said by Italians that, well, some things are not to be said. That implies not to be said verbally out loud, and yet we do say it with the nonverbals right. So the body language in Italian culture and Italian communication style does what the actual verbal communication doesn't do. The directness that is not as pronounced in the verbal communication in Italian language is added to it by the nonverbal, which can be confusing if you go there for the first time and you come from a culture where you show emotional restraint and you find that irritating.
Speaker 1:I found that quite fascinating. I still do, and those of you who know me and who've traveled with me know that my happy place, or one of my happy places in the world, is a part of northern Italy that's called Attua Adige, which has only been Italian for about 100 years. Before that it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Habsburg Empire and after World War I the winning parties ruled that this portion of land should be given to Italy and it became part of the Italian state, and Italian government since started to italicize it. So it's a bilingual area up in the mountains in northern Italy and it's fascinating. Even those parts of the population that speak German first, they all also speak Italian. It's a completely bilingual area, but even the German native speakers in that area are using Italian body language. Even when they communicate to me in German, they will look Italian in the way they communicate. Case in point that proximity creates relatability and then we assimilate and we absorb each other's communication and behavioral patterns.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, and of course you've told me about that wonderful area and of course that is the connection with food too, right, the gastronomic expression that comes from a mix of cultures like that, and you know we think about this. Maybe Italians is like a bit of an Epicurean culture, so they love the creative arts, and the creative arts makes its way into fashion, makes its way into the, the food makes its way into the cars that they produce the Ferrari and the Maserati, uh, these kind of the lunches and the Fiat's come on.
Speaker 2:I'm not diminishing them at all absolutely.
Speaker 1:And even the little, even the little Vespa, the Vespa too.
Speaker 2:Too right, the vespa, but still vespas. You know they are a beautiful machine. They may not be exactly fast, but they're efficient and they're, but they are a beautiful machine and people collect them and spend. You know, and it's a representation if you see a picture, this is how strong this is for us as humans. You see a picture of a vespa and you immediately go to italy, you immediately kind of put that connection. This is how strong these kind of things are.
Speaker 1:But uh, yeah, I know that you love a character who unfortunately is no longer with us, but uh, that described his idea of what he discovered in italy right, I would call him the patron saint of the culturalists, or my spirit, not animal, my spirit being, I guess, anthony bourdain, the late anthony bourdain, who and I'm quoting from his book he talked about italy and specifically about rome, and he wrote to me it's not the big things they tell you about the sculptures, the imposing squares and buildings, the monuments, though they are amazing.
Speaker 1:It's the little things, the tiny details, the improbable awesomeness of every little damn thing. Yep, and I agree with you, tony Bourdain, because once you get to know Italy at that level, I agree with you, tony Bourdain, because once you get to know Italy at that level and this is what Brett and I've been talking about on this program since we started culture isn't a monolith. It's in the nuances, it's in the fine-grained details where you find the awesomeness in every little damn thing. The awesomeness in every little damn thing, and you will realize that how people use their body to communicate transports emotion, positive and negative. It is a form of expression that can be so beautiful if we learn how to read it and listen to it with our whole being, and then it becomes more than a stereotype, it becomes understanding between people, and that's what we're both here for aren't we?
Speaker 2:uh, we certainly are, and okay, so let's. Is that like a pizza, where you just throw a bunch of ingredients and the mix? Oh, you started it.
Speaker 1:Oh, you said a bunch of ingredients. Oh, you mean like all the kitchen things, stuff, that's right, I can't believe it.
Speaker 2:I know, see, and that's what we think of in my country. Like, if you think of pizza, some cultures think, yeah, you're just trying a bunch of food on a piece of kind of bread-like substance. And yes, you do that to Italians and of course they will go bananas because you know pizza is an art.
Speaker 1:No bananas. On the pizza, no bananas. And while we're at it, no pineapple.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're going to have a problem here. We have a problem. I'm a pineapple pizza guy. I'm Australian. I'm a pineapple on hamburger guy too, so maybe it's just something to do with you.
Speaker 1:I'm not opposed to pineapple at all. I think I've talked to Italians who would agree with you. Right, I think it's not that triptish.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Maybe four ingredients tops. You need some red sauce, you need some mozzarella, you need maybe some prosciutto, some olives, maybe some, maybe I don't know. Anchovies, yeah, maybe Pineapple.
Speaker 2:I'll give you that one. There is no way in the world I would order pineapple on a pizza in Italy for the fear of being excommunicated and extracted.
Speaker 1:Maybe there is such a thing. Tell us, write it in the comments, show us which pizza place you've been to in Italy that serves pizza with pineapple. I'm sure there is. I will be surprised if there is Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, maybe tourist areas, but this is it. I think that was very profound. I think that is something we can almost end on, because just what Christian said, right, this is the beauty, and drawing on Anthony Bourdain's attitude wherever he went in the world, attitude wherever he went in the world, there is so much magic to be found in not only the physical intricacies of a culture, but also just the spiritual and the linguistic and the relationship side of things in a country especially as complicated and with such a long history, in a place like Italy. These things, you know, I've been to Italy, you can see them everywhere. You know, and if you're attuned, like I think, christian and I are just from sheer annoying people. We can be a little bit annoying to people because we might just kind of ask random strangers Talk about yourself, mate, don't involve me in this.
Speaker 2:Hey, listen, I know what you're like too, don't worry, I've been with you, I've traveled in many parts of the world with you. I know you'll like it too. It's just, it's curiosity. It's curiosity to look yourself in the mirror and go, yes, I like pineapple pizza and I love that, but I wouldn't do it here in Italy because look at the, just the. It's like the complication in the simplicity. There's one I'm going to throw at you. Look at that, look at that. It is the beauty of the complication in the simplicity of a pizza that just has two or three ingredients, with a nice, you know, a nice cleansing beer, something like that. Yes, exactly, yes, exactly, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Beer Alfredo, yeah, I give you the pineapple pizza if you give me the never ever coffee with milk after breakfast. Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 2:I'll give you that I don't eat coffee with milk anyway, so you know.
Speaker 1:You know, for breakfast a cappuccino latte.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So you know, you know, for breakfast a cappuccino latte, sure for breakfast, milk cappuccino for lunch or dinner or any time after breakfast. That's right.
Speaker 1:You can have all your pineapple piece if you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, stereotypes actually can be valuable in getting a little bit of that protocol knowledge before you go to Italy. And do not get yelled at by somebody behind the coffee counter when you're asking for a cappuccino at three o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker 1:Sometimes people will yell at you. They will just roll their eyes and turn around and cuss you out in the town, Probably with body language that you don't understand.
Speaker 2:that would be.
Speaker 1:Perfect.
Speaker 2:Well, have we covered it all body language that you don't understand. That would be fine. Yeah, it would Perfect. That's great. Well, we covered it all. We covered all the stereotypes. I mean we could sit here all day and blow up stereotypes, you know.
Speaker 1:Many of them. I think we should stop here, Otherwise our Italian friends will send somebody for us. You're done now, yeah that's it Well.
Speaker 2:That's it well, that's it. Two chaps. Many cultures, many cultures, many variations of cultures around the world where too much culture is barely enough. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button and please, as we always invite you to do, tell us what you think. What have you discovered? What magical things have you discovered in Italy, if you've been there, if you've travelled there? We'd love to know, because probably we'd love to go there and explore those for ourselves. That would be fantastic. We would highly appreciate it. So that's it. Another episode in the can for another week. Come back next week. We'll be back again. Same bat channel, same bat time. Well, it is bat time. It's like Tuesday, every Tuesday or so and we wish you a very good week and any final thoughts.
Speaker 1:May it end Arrivederci, arrivederci.
Speaker 2:See you, guys. Thank you.