Two Chaps - Many Cultures

Are We Going Un-Woke? The Ebbs & Flows of DE&I

• Christian Höferle and Brett Parry • Season 1 • Episode 11

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When the world seems brimming with division, can the concepts of DEI and cultural intelligence be the bridge to unity? That's the question at the heart of our conversation with Taj Suleyman, DEI Director for the City of Springfield, Missouri. Together, we venture into the nuances of language power dynamics and the regional cultural quirks that shape our discussions on social issues. Taj brings his seasoned perspective to the table, illuminating how charged terms might obstruct or pave the way to genuine understanding and progress.

Navigating the sensitive terrains of privilege and power, this episode uncovers the dual nature of privilege—both the shadows it casts and the potential light it can shed on pathways to change. We share candid personal stories that reflect the diverse spectrums of upbringing and survival, and how these narratives weave into our capacity to foster connections across cultural lines. The dialogue takes a deep look at the intricacies of deconstructing and reconstructing societal systems, with inclusivity at the core of the conversation. It's a reflection on leadership, empathy, and the roles we play within our communities.

In the wake of pivotal social justice movements, the imperative for equity and inclusion has never been clearer. We delve into how conversations around diversity can catalyze change, emphasizing the critical role of emotional intelligence and empathy in acknowledging the complex mosaic of identities. This episode does not merely aim to dissect the concepts; it strives to understand the practical implementation of fostering a sense of belonging and recognizing the rich tapestry of intercultural identities. Join us as we explore the continuous journey toward a society where diversity and inclusion are not endpoints but part of an ever-evolving process.

𝙏𝙬𝙤 𝘾𝙝𝙖𝙥𝙨 – 𝙈𝙖𝙣𝙮 𝘾𝙪𝙡𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙚𝙨 is the world’s #1 show on the business of culture and the culture of business. Christian Höferle and Brett Parry ponder culture in short bursts and deep dives, featuring your questions and comments related to culture, business, and personal growth.

Be sure to check out and subscribe to our YouTube channel for even more great content: https://www.youtube.com/@TwoChapsManyCultures

Visit https://theculturemastery.com/ for more information about the skills for working in a global context.

The music on this episode is provided courtesy of Sepalot.
“Duum Diip” - Artist: Sepalot - Label: Eskapaden - Copyright control



Speaker 1:

When we talk about dealing with people from different backgrounds and cultures, very often the topic of diversity comes into the conversation. Diversity, equity, inclusion, dei a term specifically in North America that has gone through the sociopolitical ringer. It is charged up with different meanings, it is opposed against, it is fought for. Is it really necessary? Can we talk about inclusive behaviors without the political charge? We have a guest today that will help us unpack some of that.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to 2Chap's Many Cultures. In an increasingly globally connected world, it is vital to possess the essential skills of cultural intelligence. Listen along as we present the topics, tips and strategies you can use to develop the power of cultural understanding in your personal and professional life. Here are your hosts Christian Huffala and Brett Parry.

Speaker 3:

Welcome back to Two Chaps. Many Cultures. That is the name of this show. I'm Brett, he's Christian and we have names and, as we always learn, when we put a name to something, should it always stick? Well, obviously, if you're born with a name and you're given a name, that's what people get to know you as. What about larger topics, larger things that we are interacting with on a day-to-day basis? Do we actually name them with some intentionality? And what happens if people identify that name with something that may be negative or something that causes problems in a societal sense? So we're going to talk about that today.

Speaker 3:

Before we do and we introduce our wonderful guest, as Christian says, we're going to ask you to hit the subscribe button, ring that bell on YouTube if you want to be notified of all of the new episodes that come out every week here. And also don't forget our podcast now, which is live across all kinds of platforms Apple, Spotify, amazon Music, now on iHeartRadio. By the way, we're on the radio, imagine that, which is good for us, because radio is. We've got good faces for radio. Let's get into the topic for today. We're going to talk about what's in a name, what is in a description, what is a name of a concept or a practice, especially in terms of the professional sense. And we've got our wonderful guest here, mr Taj Suleiman. Welcome to the Two Chaps Many Cultures studio and again, just deep gratitude for you joining us today, sir.

Speaker 4:

Thank you for having me and I appreciate it. It's nice to be added now. I don't know if you should call it three chaps just for today, but I appreciate. I've always appreciate your authentic conversations of how you guys have previously, so I'm honored that I'm invited.

Speaker 1:

Most certainly. Wassalamu alaikum, taj, thanks for being here. Tell us a little bit what brings you to this conversation about diversity, equity, inclusion. Why do you think we brought you here? To make us three chaps for this episode? Tell us a little bit about your background, yeah yeah.

Speaker 4:

Well, it's hard to ask why if you haven't hit an agenda. So you know I'll have to now check with you. I'll have to ask you why am I here? I'm being interviewed. You asked me why you're here, but you know what I've actually, through my very brief peeks on you know your interaction I really appreciated it. Like I said, it's authentic, it's simple, it's also in a way where anyone can relate to this conversation, the wondering, the curiosity that I've always, you know I've always grown up, you know, I've always been raised by by just asking the question. So I appreciate those questions that are not attached to any, any agendas, if you will. So so that's something I wanted to put out there too.

Speaker 4:

Also, as we have seen, you are already part of what we have in common, the three of us the intercultural field and also somewhat the DEI slash, the international experiences we're seeing more and more nationally in the United States, the conversations, even prior to the buzzword around DEI, as you may know, in our intercultural settings the conversations have always been, you know, is it either, or Is it a combination of social justice theoretical framework or intercultural theoretical framework? If we are addressing a challenge, a social challenge or social issues, which tool do we use and which one is more leaning towards? And part will address the power dynamic while you're putting labels on, maybe, individuals, situations, systems. It's now becoming more and more hard to use a term that it's going to have multiple doors, basically, to define it. If I wanted to define race, or if I wanted to define racism, or if I wanted to define disparities, these are all charged with lots of emotions, lots of notions that often can set you in an interesting, I would say, tone, even when you're trying to, whether educate or facilitate or address. It's becoming everything has basically several labels that often can either hinder or can sound like oh, finally, I heard that word, I need to engage with this anymore because it has, you know, the divisive or. Oh, here we go again.

Speaker 4:

So, what are the ways? I guess we're trying to find ways. You know how? What is next? Basically, are we comfortable with utilizing terms? Are we comfortable with driving towards positive change in where we are, without being mindful of the audiences or without being mindful of the regional, cultural, you know, around regions where we are in this country? So I don't know if you have yet talked about it, but I really would like you know through your expertise or your you know, your inquiries with me, interaction with me. I'd like to explore that with you and hopefully, whoever is going you know is going to watch us or is watching us I'd like to also get their input. It's worth having this conversation.

Speaker 1:

What brings you to this field of DEI? Your job title currently is you're the DEI officer for the city of Springfield, Missouri, correct?

Speaker 4:

Correct, director? Yes, director.

Speaker 1:

So you're not a native of Springfield, Missouri, though, are you?

Speaker 4:

No, no, I'm not a native, I wasn't born. If that's what you mean, I was not born. And you mean I was not born, and you know, I was born and raised in Lebanon, the country, and I have to make it clear because there is about an hour away from here, a small city called Lebanon, lebanon. Lebanon, same, you know, same spelling, same spelling, and from both a Sudanese father and a Saudi Arabian mother, who both had also their kind of share of the international experiences. And I am a former refugee as well and I always like to put those identities and those you know, because that's that what shapes a lot of uh, as you may know, as you know, your, your experts and scholar practitioners, if you will, in in a, in a uh, you know, when we hear the, the global nomad or the tck, when we hear those terms, uh, we imagine a military brat or someone you know what do you call the missionary brat, is that the term, or this is how we see it.

Speaker 4:

We have yet seen, you know, seeing the immigrants as part of this DCK or refugee, like myself. So I've always seen, you know, always been comfortable, and, as you know, remember Barbara Shetty or other, you know, other of these scholars, intercultural scholars I've learned how to find not just comfort, but also I strive, being in a margin, that's personally, so not marginalized. And this is again. You go to social justice theoretical framework. Marginalized means you're not supposed to be here In my. I kind of reclaim that narrative. No, I'm supposed to be watching a movie with you. I'm watching you in a movie and I enjoy it. Sometimes I step in and sometimes I get to. Identity has played a big role in recognizing and I enjoy it. Sometimes I step in and sometimes I get to. So identity has played a big role in recognizing the level of investment sometimes we have towards a topic in the community.

Speaker 4:

And, as a DEI director, what can we do in my community? 170,000 population in the Midwest, you know the Ozark, you know the Bible Belt, baco, all of these elements and in 2021, they decided to have that position. Now, what was the motive? There are lots of motives around that time, but we're seeing now more and more what type of fuel do we need to use to move forward and what is the relevance in my office or you know, in my team, or you know in my team, I have another staff that we can continue that momentum, rather than waiting for an event to happen so we can respond to it. Or let's call, you know, let's call the DI guy, basically to address or put out that fire. So we're seeing now, we're trying to find ways, and this is where I appreciate the combination of there has to be a multidisciplinary framework that would help us address the situation, not a single, you know, single disciplinary that would address oppression, if you will, or address the disparities, or address, you know, whatever definitions are laying around us.

Speaker 3:

You've brought up a good point there, taj. We're going to steal this. I think this idea of being comfortable in the margins but not marginalized, that's pretty powerful for me, because if you think about that, we're talking about today the, I guess the perception of a term like dei, and especially when it isn't a title and it's attached to someone with your rich experience and comfortability to with being in the margins, you know obviously where the people that we see, that are maybe pushing back on this, are people that are most comfortable in, you know, not in the margins, right, they're comfortable. And this is what's a threat to them. The people like that do this work are threats to them because we're and you mentioned the power structures too right, it's a threat to their power structure, it's a threat to their existence, it's an existential viewpoint from their perspective. So we can get that and well, I guess in their work we want to be cognizant of what that's doing to them mentally, psychologically and things like that.

Speaker 3:

But then to me, this tie, like you said there is the tie is because we work with people that are coming here with comfort and security and they sometimes say I kind of operate in the margins too, because I'm a leader, I'm comfortable doing that. I've led people from different backgrounds and no matter what identity they are, they have to break into kind of being part of the group, and it's a tough thing. So I would argue everybody, you know, yes, there are people that come from different background. Your, your story is of survival and tenacity and and and. All of that is inspiring. And other people go through in a different experience, like me. I always tell people my, my biggest problem in the, in my growing up, was which beach to go to. You know that was my upbringing, you know. So that's different to other people's experience. So what we're trying to do.

Speaker 4:

Please forgive me for interrupting, absolutely. I don't know if technology can catch that, but you know the empathetic link that I could have with you and have with Christian and the three of us. Often, if I compare my war zone, lived experiences in Lebanon versus which beach you want to go to, that is something that often power can play a dynamic. But also, do I disconnect from you because your issue was which beach to find, or you broke a fingernail. So I guess this is a question, not we're trying to figure out how to do it, but but how do we address power dynamic while we're also recognizing the, the, the necessity of empathy and and and relating on any level? You know, you've heard the back in the day and during COVID, where people was like, well, we're all in the same boat, it's like yeah. And then people was like, well, some are in coach and some are know down in a, the boiler, whatever they call it, the, the, the, you know the, the engine and the gunners, right, right, right. So so you know, I, I do recognize that some have yet to see the value of the power dynamic.

Speaker 4:

Also, those who see the power dynamic can isolate themselves, you know, in an opportunity that I wonder if it's worth exploring. You know, if I wanted to talk about and I will be direct, more direct because I come from an indirect culture, it's like what's your point, taj? Both of you are looking at me. It me like, yeah, you know, get to the point the concept of privilege and specifically, when we're talking about, you know, white privilege. I've always heard it, I've studied it, you know. But is privilege, for instance and this is hopefully not controversy but is it considered to be a curse? Is it considered to be a leverage? Is it considered to be a blessing? Is it considered what are you?

Speaker 4:

know, what can we do? Like someone like me working in a predominantly, you know, white community, a white male community, but then fluctuate in socioeconomic you know white community, a white male community but then fluctuate in social economic you know social economic. And then you're a drug. You're talking about dei for someone who is from a town called here, blue eye. I always like to use that example because I interact with some of the folks there. Um, basically, like, what are you trying to tell me about privilege? To them, privilege is probably the financial power, but to maybe, someone like me is maybe systemic power. So those, how are we, you know, are we using? What type of translators and transmitters are we using to talk about? How can we have a community where we cherish those diversity and I'm not talking about just the same Kumbaya songs, but what are the ways that we can leverage off of what I have of power or of privilege or advantage, towards a community overall? And that's something hopefully, you know it's addressed among the three of us.

Speaker 1:

So here's a thought, and just listening to what you've been sharing up until now, I get the feeling that perhaps the way we've approached this conversation, specifically in the United States and North America and parts of Western Europe as well, it is very often an agenda or agenda driven conversation that is trying to upset the status quo in order to be more inclusive or to bring about more equity for everyone in society, and in doing so we sometimes put a further wedge into society rather than become more inclusive. I mean, I'm going to be and forgive me now for being super direct, because my cultural background behooves me to Call the kettle black or, in this case, call the white man white. Are we, by making claims of we need to change the system, we need to dismantle the system, we need to end the white supremacist patriarchy, whatever slogans might be attached to the work of DEI and I would say falsely or erroneously so, because that's, in my opinion, not the work that DEI does but very often it's been put into that basket of social justice warriors who are kind of revolutionary in their approach and very aggressive and perhaps, as a result, not very inclusive in doing so. So if we really think that by dismantling a system, whatever it may be and however it may protect my white privilege. If I claim to undo that system in order to build something better, who will be allowed to rebuild it? Who are we then including to create something better? And are we willing to endure that period of being without a functioning system? Are we willing to endure the chaos that we are going to create by taking stuff apart to its individual parts? Right, I know controversial questions and I know that a lot of DI practitioners will not subscribe to that equivalency here, but we've seen that a lot, especially in North America, and especially as you, north America, and especially as you described earlier in a reactionary sense.

Speaker 1:

You are in Missouri. Your office probably was, maybe in part, motivated to be put in place after the George Floyd incidents and the the St Louis incidents of racial injustice and protests against racial injustice, right? So how do we go about this in a constructive way? Or, as you said, how do we go about it using whatever privilege? Some groups have to bring about more equity and inclusion. I know a big, big question how do we create world peace? But maybe we can solve that question. Right, some groups have to bring about more equity and inclusion. I know big question how do we create world peace, but maybe we can solve that question.

Speaker 4:

Right, right, and it's already happening. I think this is kind of the human nature and social beings, even though you know when people I lived in Portland, oregon, of course I lived in Utah and also in Iowa and my friends in Portland or the Northwest it's like what are you doing in there? Are you safe? And vice versa, folks here is like, oh, you live there. I can only imagine how you live among folks there. So the otherness plays a big role. The otherness plays a big role.

Speaker 4:

Also, how we introduce the conversation, I think is the key, because it's hard to troubleshoot when we are not setting the tone of the, the, the I want to use the term ground rules or a way folks can see the relevance and the importance and the buy-in in the work that we're doing. Um, so you're talking about dismantling the system. I think it's also becoming a fantasy to dismantle something or to break something or to use force against the force. So you know, I don't want to be always the practical person, but if you want to see what that would look like, I think it would cost more to rebuild than you know, to recognize the system and work towards I want to use the word fixing it in this case, whether policies or whether practices, or whether education among the staff, or whether you know eventually diversifying the workforce, or whether you know having those seeds, because I think it involves more than quantitative and qualitative data, because you're dealing with people, you're dealing with people, so that's something that I, you know, I've always been mindful.

Speaker 4:

In my sessions, training sessions, if you will around, I use embed, I inject emotional intelligence, while, before talking about diversity and the concept of diversity, also the concept of culture, what is? You know what is culture? And one I remember, one gentleman from you know public works said well, you know, I feel ashamed, I don't have a culture. I'm from this town out in, you know the woods, and I don't think I do have a culture. I said I beg the differ, sir. You know so the concept. Then you know in the woods and I don't think I do have a culture. I said I beg the differ, sir, you know so the concept. Then you know, if you see it nationally, international kind of definition around culture, sombrero, hats, whatever that is. You know you are only limiting the key in the you know what do you call it the unseen.

Speaker 4:

I've always been fascinated in it, so probably are you by the or have you by the definition of culture? What is culture? What is the culture of an organization? What is the culture of the community? What are the multiple bubbles within that bubble? And when you actually have that realization, will you feel inconvenient? If we have an inclusive culture, will you feel that something is going to be taken away? Then you're not understanding the concept of culture. So it is good for you.

Speaker 4:

So, yes, there is a promotion of inclusion, but each of the participants, bright and christian, they feel that, uh, they're uh part of the solution rather than, um, you know you have these identities and you would never know what's like to uh. You know to feel safe if you're driving, or you know, or for me to assume that I don't know what's like to be confused about which jacket to wear or which you know which socks to wear. So this is something I think empathy plays a big role in recognizing. While there is an issue, we see it on a daily basis and continue to see it, it's never going to go overnight, and I wanted to throw something out there and please say you know, try to justify what I said here. But even within the civil rights work, which I was not born in the 60s and 70s. Even there are movements that are still functioning from what happened in the 60s, rather than recognizing also what could happen and where we are right now, in a time that we are. What are the tools that can be necessary from there, from the civil rights era, to our time right now, while complemented with the current solutions? Because demographically we're changing? We have now, as you have might have worked already, you know, and maybe a smaller town, smaller cities there is. That it's not in census.

Speaker 4:

Even there is the identity that people are hardly talking about it, which is, I, related to TCK, but the biracial identity, what you know. You go and sit, you know, sit down with a multi biracial person and work with them and say, well, where are you? And I, you know it's not fun always to ask that question, but where are you? You know, are you white or are you black? Uh, and they they'll tell you if I go there, I don't find me fully, and if I go here, same thing. So I created my own reality and this is growing and growing.

Speaker 4:

We're seeing families are reaching out to community foundations because they don't know how to deal with their own grandkids on a social level because of their identity and who they are. So is the question can we complement, as we are comfortable with the intercultural theoretical framework, complement both with each other, to recognize that, if you are going to address power dynamic, also address the, the, the interaction with these power dynamic and with these cross, uh, cultural identities? Uh, in a way where people can invest in it in a healthy way, rather than in a, in a I want to use the word aggressive, maybe I'm, you know, I've been too long here in the Midwest but but a way where it is constructive or naturally it's already taken place in the community, rather than we are setting the tone and the definition and the label, as Americans in general like to put everything with a label. So this is where we are. I think this is something that I don't know if you agree with me, but this is something that we're noticing.

Speaker 4:

The, you know, is one, disciplinary is going to be the only solution, the only pill that will cure us. Or, what are the, what are the courses and when do we use what? In implementing change that everybody, by, by its meaning, everybody can feel that they're contributing through what they already have. You know so, so, uh, we've seen it in movies, we've seen it, and you know, if you want to build a house, the whole community will come together and some will have a nail, some will have a you know hammer. How, how does that work?

Speaker 3:

and and that's something that I'm interested in exploring here in my position- I was thinking what can we not equate in intercultural, inter interculturality with intersectionality? Ah, is that? I mean you? You said about somebody saying to you, I don't feel like I have a culture, right. So perhaps say, yeah, that's something to recognize, and. But then when you really dig into their identity, they it doesn't matter what they look like, who they pray to, who they love, right, it can you can always pick up some sense of intersectionality where there is an identity at which some point in their life they have felt excluded and and and so that gives them some empathy.

Speaker 3:

You know, that was that was kind of what I was thinking when you were saying that and then. So we started this out talking about what it is about a word, what's a name. So is it now, rather than push back against, the pushback of, against dei right? Rather than see it as a negative, maybe embrace it and say, actually, you're right. This is how I kind of disarm people when they say that DEI is woke and it's all. Why not say to them you know, you're right, because what we've done, we've put a fence around something and made it quite exclusive, right, and so now can we both come up with a term that we're all comfortable with, that recognizes the humanity and the identities and intersectionality and interculturality of everybody.

Speaker 4:

Christian, you were going to say something.

Speaker 1:

I'm observing this because I come to this conversation from way out left field right. I grew up in a fairly monocultural, predominantly white society where, yes, I also enjoyed some level of privilege, however not at the expense of a lot of other people, because the Society in which I grew up was not as diverse as the society in which I live today. I find it interesting how we here in the US, or in other Western, so-called Western societies we enjoy, seem to enjoy change processes in a belligerent way, in a dualistic winner-takes-all fight, instead of trying to figure out, just like you said earlier, I got the hammer, can you bring the nails, and maybe we can find a third party who brings the two-by-fours and let's start building something Right. That is a different start to the conversation than saying I'm right, you're wrong. No, the opposite is true, and we seem to live in a world where it's a lot more entertaining, there's a lot more clicks and a lot more eyeballs going to the cage fight of I'm wrong and you're right and whatever, that's a different show.

Speaker 1:

That's a different. Well, it is a show instead of a constructive conversation that leads to a better outcome.

Speaker 4:

What was Christian? I wanted to forgive me for interrupting. There's something that a few weeks ago, when I we briefly talked, he said something about uh, I was somehow making an observation about how debate classes in the united states are. You know, I remember one time I was, you know, asked to be a judge in one of those competitions and someone came and and like totally, this is totally, you know, unhealthy. And he, you know this kid managed to actually convince me that I should be drinking whatever the unhealthy, you know, potion was through debate and of course, there's a counter to that debate.

Speaker 4:

But there is something, christian, you did like, uh, you know, I did like, and I, uh, is it the socratic approach? Is that? Is it and that's something that I feel it's okay towards what is it? Is it what is right or who is right? And often we struggle with with both? Is it about me? Proven to you that I'm wrong, I'm right, or is it? This situation can't afford go any further in our community or our organization or our team. That, for the sake of team, what can we do to resolve to leverage off of these you, you know, diverse talents that we have, for instance, or to invite, you know, economically. This is why it's good for business, this is why it's good, you know. So I wonder if this is worth, you know, discussing, as we're talking about what earlier Brett talked about, the intersectionality and inter cultural culturality. Um, you know often, uh, you know, intersectionality, it talks about the, the multiple identities within our identity and the sophistication of who we are, while the interculturality helps with.

Speaker 4:

Okay, let's see those interactions and also address some of the dynamic. Let's talk about some of the dynamic. Both are valuable. Both are valuable and that's something I think took me, I would say, more than 10 to 12 years for me to recognize where I am and seeing that there is need. There is a need for more than social justice and there is a need for more the intercultural framework. We are at a time right now, even there is a need for more of the intercultural framework.

Speaker 4:

We are at a time right now, even though, in the advancement of both social justice, theoretical framework, especially when they are, you know, within, on the ground, grassroots activism, versus the intercultural, you know, communication framework, I see it sometimes isolated or self-isolate, because you realize you use sophisticated terms and it becomes an elite often in both, that it's hard to marry them together. And we've seen some scholars, as you know, like, for instance, catherine Sorrell or others that they talk about, dr Catherine Sorrell and others, dr Ahmed and others, they're seeing it, they've addressed their cultural practice model. They start you cultural practice model, they start seeing. But I still felt, even when we, as interculturalists, we were laughing earlier about the concept. But the interculturalists, the foundational interculturalists, while we're addressing inclusion through these lenses, I find myself being excluded for being part of a mindset within the intercultural theoretical framework or social justice theoretical framework. I could be wrong, I don't know, maybe my intercultural membership is going to be taken away and the social justice is like hey you know it's happened to me before You're born with it.

Speaker 4:

Nobody can take it away from you. But is it? Is it something? Is it something? And we've seen it in conferences and meetings and you know we interacted that often I have to create a lane and I think maybe it's an American or maybe, you know, european thing. You know I have a lane, I have a box, I, you know I have to consumptionalize it, capture it, but you know it's not a cookie cutter. There's more into.

Speaker 4:

You know, when talking, you know if it's a theory, if I have a model that works well on paper, will I be able to, you know, can I be open enough and humble enough to see the value of some of it in my work, instead of saying, well, copy and paste, nope, it needs to. You know you need to finish session one and session two and session three. If the whole session, you know the one session, can meet it all, then you know, by relationship, by leveraging the value, the community value, the. What do you value as a community, as a, as a team member, as a department member? And let's leverage off of that for us to actually say well, you know, you may call it dei, but I call it I, I don't know. Uh, you know cheese and crackers. I I don't, you know, I I don't know what it is, what will you call it?

Speaker 1:

you told me earlier that, or you told us both earlier, before we hit the record button, that your department will go through well, have a new definition or a new name. At least I don't know if it will change the definition of your work, but the the title on your business card will change. So what will it be from future on?

Speaker 4:

yeah, so we're planning. A couple weeks ago we presented before the city, uh, city council on the transition of the name and now we're going through some legal legality and some policy work here, from the DEI, or diversity, equity inclusion, to actually office of belonging and intercultural development. This probably would be the only office that I've heard of development. This probably would be the only office that I've heard of. You know, I've seen we're not looking to be on a Guinness book or you know, but also seeing how DEI is deepened within the concept of belonging and the intercultural development component can address both interpersonal and cross-cultural when we know the concept of culture. So, you know professional development, you know you want to use the intercultural theoretical framework around learning styles, communication styles, you know, while recognizing the intersectional identities as well.

Speaker 4:

Right, but I'm now talking to two. You know, if we're walking on the street and it's like, well, these are two white men and you know, uh, black men walking together, wonder which, you know, which town in the united states they're from and originally, or where they were born, uh, until they get closer and start hearing accents like whoa, okay, I'm confused. Now you know, uh, so, so the identity is becoming more and more complex and it is for someone like at least me and you may relate to feel uh suffocated basically by like oh, no, you're, you're a middle eastern Taj. I've had friends. It's like, well, no, you're, you're an Arab, or I, you know, go to my African friends, uh, sudanese. Like no, no, you're, you're one of us. Look at you, uh, so so you know, it is good to have the sense of belonging, but it's you decide the condition of how I belong here and how I become. That's empowerment.

Speaker 3:

Very good. I thought that perhaps I would draw a metaphor, because I'm certainly not academic and I don't use very complicated words, that's why we bring smart people like you on.

Speaker 3:

I'll make up something in Arabic? No, absolutely, but seriously, you brought up Socrates before. I think this is interesting and again, I'm not a studier of the topic, but Socrates to me there's an example or a metaphor for inclusion, and why it's important or belonging is that you're bringing three different concepts. Socrates came up with the idea, but he didn't write it down. He just kind of came up with the ideas and walked around the streets and he upset a lot of people by doing it.

Speaker 3:

And then Plato came along and said, well, hey, somebody's got to capture this. So that was his skill, right. He wrote the platonic verses. He brought ideas in that form and then, of course, aristotle then went a step further and turned it into an encyclopedia Britannica of facts, right? So there's data, there's concepts, there's ideas, and everybody is really uniquely placed to interpret and present them, and that's just true of life. I think to me that was what I got out of this. You know, it was actually a podcast I was listening to, um, the wonderful hidden brain podcast. Uh, I was wondering where he pulled that out from I know.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, actually I should have not said it because I would have sounded a lot smarter than I am, but it is really. It was profound for me is that in such a really complicated, thoughtful kind of space and academic exploration of self and all of that kind of thing that Socrates Socrates you can actually draw some very basic connections to today's world and how we might want to kind of just get people around us that think differently, record differently, communicate differently, because other than that, you know we're just an amoeba, you know we're just kind of one big blob and it doesn't make for very interesting conversations.

Speaker 1:

It doesn't make for very interesting conversations. Yeah, and on that topic, I mean, let's stick with that historic metaphor. Most of us probably know what happened to Mr Socrates. His life ended prematurely because he was told to end it himself by drinking from the poisonous chalice. So the messenger got killed. So to say so, are we at this crossroads in the dei world that those who bring the message are about to be sidelined because we are finding it's too difficult to accept that our societal structure is flawed? Or do we recognize that, no matter what period of history we lived in, those societies who were exclusive, who did not create a sense of belonging within their communities, did not succeed? It was the societies that made people from different corners come to a crossroads and feel like they belonged and built something bigger. Those were usually the societies, in the course of human history, who prevailed for a much, much longer time.

Speaker 4:

Now, christian, something I want to insert and again, forgive me, I get excited hearing some of the points you shared. I say that diversity is a recipe for disaster as much as it is a recipe for success. Much as it is a recipe for success when you are not recognizing diversity and the concept of diversity and leveraging whether business, organization, you know, private organization or a team, if you want them all to say, well, you know, I don't care about who you are and what you're bringing in, just do your darn job and leave Versus. You know what I'm going to challenge your team. We have a situation, we have a scenario, we have an issue. I'd like you, I'm going to give you a day, 10 minutes, half an hour, a time to go and come back with a solution for it or with how you want to break it down to me. And when we sit oh, this is a great way. I'm sure you know you have done some activities with organizations, but they see the value of you know I am able to be more circular, or maybe you know this is how I fix a situation or a scenario. That is where the success happens.

Speaker 4:

So there is a leverage of what you're bringing in, not because of you know, and I do admit that I'm a handsome guy, but it's not always. You know, I know it's a moneymaker thing, but it is, is it? You know? This is what I say here and when I say it is a disaster when you leave it untouched, when you leave diverse perspective, diverse identities untouched just for the sake of tokenization and the quota Right.

Speaker 4:

But if you are recognizing more in depth of the team that you have, with what you have, you know I can't dismantle the team because they're all white. I can't dismantle the team because they are all women. So what can I do with the intersectional identities that they have, even within them, the cultural identity, the big bubble, to recognize that? Hey, you know I have raw material here I need to leverage off of. So I don't know if, in what context, christian, I don't know if that's it. I hope I didn't derail your thought. Please forgive me again, but you know this is something that I've always seen, that sure. You know the percentage. How many quote unquote minority have you hired versus? You know what are the values of hiring diverse representation Right hearing you correctly?

Speaker 1:

but what I hear you say is let's get away from this simple thinking of this is this was wrong and we can do better by undoing with which was wrong and completely start from scratch. You're saying let's find the the beauty within the existing system. Find the beauty within the existing system, find the resources that are in it already and have been untouched or untapped as of yet, and find ways to improve it from within, rather than tearing it down and hoping to rebuild it better, which chances are it might not be better than it was before. Am I hearing that correctly?

Speaker 4:

Right.

Speaker 4:

Right, you know it's easy to if you're talking practically on the ground, what that would look like. We pilot projects. I like that concept. I don't know if it might change my mind in the future. I like that concept. I don't know if it might change my mind in the future, but it's been going for the last, you know, five to seven years in my career. Specifically, I like the idea of piloting. I like the idea of if I see a team, an organization sorry, a department, a team division, that they're working, I like to sit back and watch in the movie to uh to say, you know, you're working on this project. I wonder if this is the tools that you have intellectually, professionally, if you have it, if you have it, go and do it and let's watch it. And let's see the other team they're working on something similar and see and come back and say, okay is, does this plant work well in your department and if it does, does it work in the whole organization? And maybe this is our own identity, maybe this is our own culture. So I've been lucky with the trust of the most, I would say, be frank, most of the department heads here within the city, with trust and even with the name change, even with the, you know the recognition of.

Speaker 4:

You know the DEI lens. If you will within project, within grant, with their certificates, within not just the, don't do it. And if you know, if you do that or you have to do that, otherwise you'll be penalized by the federal government right, the compliance component. There's no need to use the stick If you're interacting with folks that will. You know you strive, you know you strive for success. You strive for. These are the challenges that you have. Dei lens can help or OBIT now can help with recognizing. You know the. What do you call the thought process? Recognize the? You know you can't just problem solution. They have to stop somewhere where you recognize.

Speaker 4:

So you know you've already seen some of the scholars and interact with some of the scholars that they talk about. You know the George Renwick, for instance. You know the late scholar George. I mean, if you sit down he is definitely he looks. You know he's white. But if you sit down and speak with him and probably if you learn, you know he's white. But if you sit down and speak with him and probably if you learn, you know you heard him speak Mandarin. He's like whoa, okay, this is, and he's talking breaking down the organizational structure in such a creative way that you know, when you're seeing intercultural theoretical framework or even social justice, they're being put in the work, not for the checkoff, they're actually embodying the concepts towards.

Speaker 4:

You know, I can go home right now and I don't have to struggle or feel stuck or burn out at work. I process something internally and I process something with someone that we differ in perspective or in identities, that at least I am at peace with it today and tomorrow and address it instead of feeling disconnected, instead of feeling disconnected. So that is, this is. You know, we're now we're recruiting for intercultural facilitators within the city who are representative of different, you know different departments. They will go through emotional intelligence, diversity, inclusion, intercultural framework and, if it's okay for me to give a shout out to the EIDI, the Intercultural Intelligence and Diversity Institute, through Anita Rowe and Donna, of course, and others.

Speaker 4:

So we were trying to find a way to. You know, this is not what we like to use here, because I'm in Springfield, the Serval Bullets, you know, because we talk about our guns and hunting here. But you know it's not the only way. But there is a recognition that we are trying to find our own identity within the city, despite the other DI theoretical framework or the work that is already taking place. Like to add, we'd like to look beyond the you know just the limited way of some folks probably will see DEI. We'd like to expand on it.

Speaker 3:

Wonderful. Well, Taj, yes, this is a great conversation. This is really rich, and I hope those those are watching or listening appreciate when we get the chance to bring somebody like you on to this program. We just can't help learning from you, and you mentioned George Renwick. You know, George Renwick was one of those people too. You know, you just sat on that in that gentleman's aura and you couldn't help learn, and you are counted amongst those that we look to to do the same kind of thing, Taz. So may your, may your work continue, inshallah, with great prosperity, and that you bring all these people and everybody that is around you that's been inspired by you and led by you is going to see the fulfillment of the ongoing practice. It's great. We love doing this work. This is what drives us every day right. Talking about being in the margins, that's where the fun happens. We try and inspire people, right? We?

Speaker 4:

get to have popcorn while watching, so it's a great honor to have you, sir, so thank you very much you heard the man.

Speaker 1:

There is no silver bullet. We got to do the work. It is work that continues right there. We we might be drawn to quick fixes or the promise of a permanent turnaround of any situation. I'm at an age now where I've come to realize any change you want is worth working on. It means you got to keep plugging away at it. So with that I am happy that we were able to showcase a practitioner in the field today from the Midwest, in a place where you may have not expected that to be at the center of someone's work. So whatever we call it in the future, whatever label we put on it, whatever name we use for the work, the work continues. We serve humanity, we build community, and that works a lot better if we do it together, right, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 4:

If you want to go, uh, uh, fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together, and this is a model that we've been using here. So again, by the way, both of you, from my interaction with you, you've given me enough. You know too much credit, but I've learned so much from, whether offline or you know, or even just watching you from far. So I do appreciate that opportunity and hope, you know, you'll engage more and more of us.

Speaker 4:

Uh, just simply to ask the question what you know, how are we? How well are we doing it? And and are there ways to do it in a sustainable, healthy, uh way where you know I could go and not feel burnt out in the field that I'm in and you probably can understand, I could go and play golf like folks you know, and you know the chief of police will probably. I don't know if he likes golf, but I need to ask him. You know I could be in part of the work instead of feeling that I'm in a constant fight and it could take the toll on our health. So I look forward to finding ways that we could do it with less tension and more joy. Yeah, Beautiful.

Speaker 3:

So, thank you, that's Two Chaps, many Cultures. I actually believe this might be a two-part series. This, uh, and we probably need to bring you back because this is it's a great topic and, uh, anybody who wants to reach out to taj, please, I'm you know, he's uh, he's an open book and a great teacher and I'm sure he would uh welcome um having a having a chat, and we're here too. We want welcome having a chat, and we're here too. We want to have a chat too. We want to hear from you, we want to hear your feedback, we want to hear your perspective, what your thoughts are on what we talked about today. Put them in the comments.

Speaker 3:

If you're watching on YouTube, we've got a whole comment section there. We've got emails. We've got websites the Cultural Mastery Go to the Cultural Mastery, check that out. Lots of resources there, and also our YouTube channel and our podcast. So that's another one in the can. Thank you very much, taj. Just again, deep honor for having you on and taking the time to do this. So very much appreciated. This is Two Chaps, many Culture, where too much culture is barely enough and too much belonging is never enough. No, not at all.

Speaker 4:

See you later, everybody Bye now.